Drop in for a natter about anything French related.They voted for Le Pen in the second round purely to vote against Macron, thus reducing his lead. They are certainly not supporters of MLP !!
Macron -v- Le Pen (or is it La Plume?)
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Blaze
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Macron -v- Le Pen (or is it La Plume?)
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Wilbro
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Macron -v- Le Pen (or is it La Plume?)
@Blaze I agree Blaze despite the illogicality of it. I don't think it's a clock face thing it's more of a linear thing with the Left at one end and the Right at the other.
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exile
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Macron -v- Le Pen (or is it La Plume?)
I have to disagree @Wilbro.
AS evidence I will cite the official party name of the major political party in Germany in the 1930s:
NAtional SoZIalismus
Clearly they saw themselves as having a left of centre view.
AS evidence I will cite the official party name of the major political party in Germany in the 1930s:
NAtional SoZIalismus
Clearly they saw themselves as having a left of centre view.
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niemeyjt
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Macron -v- Le Pen (or is it La Plume?)
I have to say that was behind my thinking with the clock face analogy - though I had not appreciated where the "ZI" bit came from before now.
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Wilbro
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Macron -v- Le Pen (or is it La Plume?)
@exile spot
That may have been the official party line but nowhere near Hitler's political strategy. He initially "supported" trade unions and businesses but once in power any facade of socialism disappeared along with so many other supposed policies. Totally right wing fascists.
That may have been the official party line but nowhere near Hitler's political strategy. He initially "supported" trade unions and businesses but once in power any facade of socialism disappeared along with so many other supposed policies. Totally right wing fascists.
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MAD87
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Macron -v- Le Pen (or is it La Plume?)
Quite. Witness the Jilly Jones, a supposed social(ist) movement, welcoming and supported by the anarchist Black Blocs.Wilbro wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:53 pm @exile spot
That may have been the official party line but nowhere near Hitler's political strategy. He initially "supported" trade unions and businesses but once in power any facade of socialism disappeared along with so many other supposed policies. Totally right wing fascists.
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exile
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Macron -v- Le Pen (or is it La Plume?)
Well I suppose it depends on how you define socialism. If the be all and end all is how far unions are supported, then I would have to agree. If however you see it more broadly and see it as a mechanism for supporting the people, then I am afraid you are wrong.Wilbro wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:53 pm @exile spot
That may have been the official party line but nowhere near Hitler's political strategy. He initially "supported" trade unions and businesses but once in power any facade of socialism disappeared along with so many other supposed policies. Totally right wing fascists.
Unemployment fell from 33% in 1933 to near enough zero by 1936 (truly socialist ambition). This was achieved through massive public infrastructure projects - autobahns, sports stadia, improvement of the railways (highly socialist). This also benefited business greatly so I disagree on the point that businesses were not supported.
Add to that the birth of the peoples' car which was intended to allow every family to aspire to car ownership and without knowing what happened subsequently that all sounds very socialist.
I don't disagree that they were very nasty fascists but I continue to contend that they achieved their power and popularity through socialist projects. Hence I say the difference between extreme right and extreme left can be paper thin.
@MAD87 The silly Jillies exhibit exactly the same symptoms. At one moment very socialist and the next extremely right wing and without at any stage ever being centrist. It is but a small step from one extreme to the other.
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Wilbro
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Macron -v- Le Pen (or is it La Plume?)
And why did the economy boom in 30's Germany? Because they were borrowing unsustainable amounts, stopped paying reparations and the US banks were lending Germany more money than they were paying in reparations before they stopped paying altogether. Hitler was buying popularity to get himself installed as the one and only leader. Apparent Socialism to enable his end desire.
The industrial economy boomed, basically gearing up for war which was always Hitler's endpoint although it started 3 years earlier than he wanted as 1942 was his preferred year to give him time to complete building up his forces.
I'm sorry but you can't make black white.
The industrial economy boomed, basically gearing up for war which was always Hitler's endpoint although it started 3 years earlier than he wanted as 1942 was his preferred year to give him time to complete building up his forces.
I'm sorry but you can't make black white.
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exile
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Macron -v- Le Pen (or is it La Plume?)
But, dare I say it, that is typical socialist behaviour - borrow up to the absolute limit.
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exile
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Macron -v- Le Pen (or is it La Plume?)
The problem as I see it @Wilbro is that you keep providing valid information that is equally if not more biased towards a socialist operation.
As I see it as a non-historian/politician is that a socialist agenda talks about the rights of the people. An extreme right wing agenda plays to the rights of "our" people and often to the exclusion of anyone that is not "our".
The differentiation is small bur sadly very significant.
Look at Russia and Putin.
10 years ago, before the annexation of Crimea, what would your view have been? Left wing? New Communist?
I am not sure I would have been quite there - perhaps left wing autocrat. But I don't think anyone here would have seen him as a fascist.
Today:
He denies the rights of a country to exist as such.
He says that Ukrainians do not exist. [ You have to understand East European history to understand that the Ukraine/Russian power came from the dominant city of Kyiv and not Moscow. }
He says that Ukraine should be subsumed into Russia. Historically it should be the other way about.
That has all has the hallmarks of a "fascist" dictator to me.
As I see it as a non-historian/politician is that a socialist agenda talks about the rights of the people. An extreme right wing agenda plays to the rights of "our" people and often to the exclusion of anyone that is not "our".
The differentiation is small bur sadly very significant.
Look at Russia and Putin.
10 years ago, before the annexation of Crimea, what would your view have been? Left wing? New Communist?
I am not sure I would have been quite there - perhaps left wing autocrat. But I don't think anyone here would have seen him as a fascist.
Today:
He denies the rights of a country to exist as such.
He says that Ukrainians do not exist. [ You have to understand East European history to understand that the Ukraine/Russian power came from the dominant city of Kyiv and not Moscow. }
He says that Ukraine should be subsumed into Russia. Historically it should be the other way about.
That has all has the hallmarks of a "fascist" dictator to me.