DaveW wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 8:31 pm
I’m not sure this is a Schengen issue, it’s making an exception for a third country. I have American friends who have had to live with the rules for years and would love to have a special status to overstay. If there is an exception for UK citizens, then why not everybody?
I don't know whether it still exists, but a Google translation from https://42mag.fr/2023/05/les-senateurs- ... econdaire/
The Schengen Agreement states that certain bilateral treaties from before its entry into force (1995), in theory, still parallel the 90/180 day Schengen rules.
One, for example, allows Americans to stay in France for three additional months.
However, the US travel advisory for France does not mention it and we understand that US visitors rarely try to use it as it can be difficult to explain to border police.
To date, we have not identified any states that have signed such agreements after the implementation of Schengen rules.
New visa joy for Brits with holiday homes as Spain joins France in calling for the post-Brexit 90-day visit limit to be axed, admitting it is harming their economy
Brits who own second homes in Spain may soon be able to stay longer than the post-Brexit 90-day limit, with the Spanish government joining calls to axe the unpopular rule.
Under the law, Britons can stay in their holiday homes for just 90 out of every 180 days. In order to stay longer, they must apply for a long-stay visa of up to six months.
Now, the Spanish government has admitted that the rule, which limits how long British travellers can spend in European Union countries without a visa, is negatively impacting Spain.
'Unfortunately, the rule is not something Spain has established by itself or can get rid of,' the country's acting Minister of Tourism, Hector Gomez said. 'It is in our interest to lobby and convince the EU that we can try to work an exception with them. But the solution must come from them.'
It comes after France's senate voted through an amendment to the immigration law that will give British second homeowners the automatic right to a long-stay visa, after politicians there said UK tourists had been 'punished by Brexit'.
Under current rules, Britons can stay in their holiday homes for just 90 out of every 180 days
Andrew Hesselden, Campaign Director and founder of '180 Days in Spain', which campaigns for Brits' free movement in the country, told the Majorca Daily Bulletin that he is 'delighted to see French senators recognise the injustice of the situation that British part-year residents have found themselves in since Brexit'.
He added that his campaign's members 'remain hopeful of similar recognition in Spain for everyone affected'.
Now developments appear to be happening in Spain, with Gomez confirming earlier this week that he had held an 'important meeting' with the UK's Director of Consular Affairs and Crisis, Jennifer Anderson, at the Foreign Office.
The pair 'discussed issues of interest regarding the stays of British tourists in Spain and discussed collaboration projects for future seasons,' he said. This is understood to have included the 90-day cap.
The UK is Spain's biggest and most profitable tourism market, with almost double the number of Brits visiting the country than German tourists last year.
Data from Spain's National Institute of Statistics (INE) shows that two million people travelled to Spain from the UK last year, constituting 23.8 per cent of the total number of visitors.
Under Schengen Area rules, non-EU citizens, including those from the UK, entering the territory under the visa-free regime can only stay for a maximum of 90 days out of every 180 days.
Those who overstay, be it intentionally or unintentionally, can face hefty penalties in Spain, including fines of up to €10,000 and jail terms.
France 's senate voted through an amendment to the immigration law that will give British second homeowners the automatic right to a long-stay visa (file image)
They could also be subject to deportation and entry bans, with the post-Brexit restrictions proving a nightmare for thousands of Brits with properties across Spain and France.
Martine Berthet, a French senator who represents the Savoie in the southern Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes region, has now put forward a change to the rules after receiving complaints from Britons who own holiday homes in the region.
'The Britons I have spoken to say the current system is long-winded, difficult and full of pitfalls,' she said, according to The Daily Telegraph.
She also said that the rules are keeping them from contributing to France's economy, and that the restrictions will already add to the rising number of vacant properties in the country's popular tourist regions.
'Ties are warming between France and the UK following the royal visit,' she said. 'And don't forget, King Charles reserved his only official speech for the French Senate.
'The British are privileged partners of France. History has shown this to be the case.'
The amendment to the law still needs to be debated in France's National Assembly (the country's lower house) before it can be passed, and is being opposed by Emmanuel Macron's government.
I suppose it’s typical of the Daily Mail but the article is not accurate.
‘Brits who own second homes in Spain may soon be able to stay longer than the post-Brexit 90-day limit, with the Spanish government joining calls to axe the unpopular rule.
Under the law, Britons can stay in their holiday homes for just 90 out of every 180 days. In order to stay longer, they must apply for a long-stay visa of up to six months.’
No six month visa exists in Spain so it’s not something that can be applied for. The option would be the NLV which is a year long visa. Many second home owners with houses in Spain do apply for that but are then careful to not stay a day over 180/360 because that would trigger them becoming tax resident in Spain, having to change their driving licences, register their cars and so on. The 180 days in Spain group is a bit odd because they claim that they are resident in both countries and dislike the term second home. They want to be considered six month residents without needing any of the commitment that goes with genuine residence. They clutch at straws. They have found one politician who is keen to support their cause but the Spanish government has said it has no intention of following France’s example of offering a six month visa. It sounds as though the news from France has been seen as another excuse to highlight their campaign. The Mail’s wording implies that the change to the French 180 day visa is a done deal which, of course, it’s not. History proves that believing what is written in the Daily Mail can have disastrous results.
France blocks plan to scrap 90-day visa rule for British expats
A French court has blocked efforts to allow British expats to stay in the country for longer than 90 days without a visa.
France’s Constitutional Council rejected on Thursday an amendment to the immigration bill that would allow long-stay visas to be automatically issued to British nationals who own a second home in France because it deemed it unconstitutional.
The amendment would have allowed British homeowners in France to spend as much time as they wish in the country after Brexit.
But the amendment’s defeat means all British nationals – including those with a home in France – are only be able to stay 90 days out of every 180 in the country without a visa. If they want to stay longer, they will have to apply for a temporary long-stay visa of up to six months.
There is no right of appeal against the Constitutional Council, so the decision is final.
Martine Berthet, a French senator representing the Savoie area in the Alps, tabled the amendment to these rules in November after receiving complaints from British second home owners in her region.
Ms Berthet said last year that keeping British citizens from contributing to France’s local economies would just add to an already-rising number of vacant properties in tourist areas.
The defeat of the amendment is a blow to thousands and comes after the number of British nationals house-hunting in France has surged six-fold since the law to an “automatic” right to remain in the country was first mooted.
Data from the UK-based international property portal Kyero showed that in the three weeks after the amendment was tabled, there was a 582pc increase in Britons enquiring about French properties on the site.
Jason Porter, a director at tax specialists Blevins Franks, said: “The element [to the immigration bill] for UK second home owners was always going to be rejected as it was not treating everyone equally as it does not apply for the other 61 countries eligible for visa entry into France.”
Mr Porter added that both France and Spain have been vocal on the social and economic costs of Brexit on their countries, arguing that immigration rules applying to UK nationals with property in these countries cannot visit and stay as often as they may have done previously.
When it was tabled last year, President Emmanuel Macron’s government did not back the amendment.
The president has given thousands of local authorities powers to apply council tax surcharges of up to 60pc to second homes, the owners of which include 86,000 British nationals.
Second home hotspots in France include ski capital Val-Cenis in Savoie, as well as the seaside town La Tranche-sur-Mer in the Vendée.
France is not the only popular second home destination for British nationals. Thousands of British retirees have flocked to the shores of Portugal’s “golden triangle” of resort towns in the Algarve.
I think it was always clear re the Brexit agreement.
Let’s hope a change of government can negotiate a deal that makes sense. Trouble is without binding agreement it can all be turned around again. Why spend time and effort on a lost cause, the EU seems to be surviving without the wobbly UK.
This is a (deepl) translation of the relevant text from the constitutional council. It’s a NO.
Article 16 inserts a new article L. 312-4-1 into the Code de l'entrée et du séjour des étrangers et du droit d'asile (Code on the Entry and Residence of Foreigners and the Right of Asylum), which provides that a long-stay visa is issued automatically to British nationals who own a secondary residence in France.
80. The applicant Members maintained that Article 16 had no place in the Act on the grounds that it had been introduced at first reading under a procedure contrary to Article 45 of the Constitution.
81. Introduced at first reading, the purpose of these provisions is to amend the specific conditions of residence in France for certain British nationals. These provisions therefore have no connection, even indirect, with the aforementioned provisions of Articles 1, 3, 6 and 7 of the initial Bill. Nor are they connected, even indirectly, with any of the other provisions which appeared in the draft law submitted to the Senate.
82. Consequently, without the Constitutional Council prejudging the conformity of the content of these provisions with other constitutional requirements, it must be held that, having been adopted in accordance with a procedure contrary to the Constitution, they are therefore contrary to the Constitution.
niemeyjt wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 8:26 pm
Isn't the issue not at the EU level, but at the local level in France and Spain which reportedly suffers a reduction in income from visiting Britons?
Does anyone have exact evidence?
p4psb showed the reason the proposal was rejected in para 81.
But this is a border issue which I believe needs to be agreed at the EU level and would also need to apply to foreigners from all countries rather than just British nationals.
Drop in for a natter about anything French related.
