Where next?

[niemeyjt]

Yes, but Switzerland is outside the EU, NATO etc . . . although isn't that on the Le Pen manifesto?

Don't give her ideas.

[Biloute]

Yes, but Switzerland is outside the EU, NATO etc

You've got it !
As for a possible Frexit, Marine Le Pen had to abandon the idea to have a small chance of de-demonizing herself in an era where the mainstream media was brainwashing people in favor of the "European religion."

[Blaze]

The concept of the EU seems to have changed (some would say evolved) since it was first conceived, mainly for ease of trade and movement between member countries. The UK sensibly elected to stay out of Schengen which was physically easier to do being an island. But for all the advantages of open borders, the last couple of decades have shown that political instability and wars make a Europe with no borders an attractive haven for people desperate for peace.

Farming has certainly changed and much of that can be attributed to generous EU grants (we ourselves benefitted from one some years ago). Sadly these subventions also encouraged overspending and unfortunately for many, debts due to bad harvests, bad sales, low price return ...

The EU is a different subject, rather too big to tackle here and it would merit its own topic.

@Biloute The cost of electricity itself isn't exorbitant, it's the taxes that make our bills so high ! And some of France's problems are nothing to do with being in the EU ! Take bank lending for example : 30+ years ago, it was difficult to borrow money, particularly if you wanted to buy an old house to do up. Banks were more keen to lend against a new property. Today people can borrow money for practically anything - even paying for their holiday. The number of people who own their car outright has dropped dramatically with all the tempting advertising for only x€ a month. How good are the credit checks - if indeed they are made ?

Sorry, I digress from the topic, but the EU isn't to blame for all France's ills, any more than Macron alone is !!

[Biloute]

The EU is a different subject, rather too big to tackle here and it would merit its own topic.

@Biloute The cost of electricity itself isn't exorbitant, it's the taxes that make our bills so high ! And some of France's problems are nothing to do with being in the EU ! Take bank lending for example : 30+ years ago, it was difficult to borrow money, particularly if you wanted to buy an old house to do up.
Sorry, I digress from the topic, but the EU isn't to blame for all France's ills, any more than Macron alone is !!

Talking about the EU here is not off topic because the government's upcoming task is very much intertwined with it:
- the price of electricity has gone up because of the single energy market (arenh)
- our farmers are suffering from EU standards and the Mercosur agreement
- we give more money to the EU than we receive
- the EU can sanction us if the debt becomes too big compared to the GDP, which will push our heads even deeper under water
- we cannot expel foreign criminals because the ECHR refuses
- the Schengen area allows all criminals to enter France freely, including those who bring drugs from Ansterdam or Rotterdam
The Bayrou government will have to think about all this for the good of the French people. While knowing that MLP and LFI have opposing opinions:
- the left wants more migrants and that the so-called rich pay more taxes
- the right wants fewer migrants and to reduce state spending
- the debt: the right is panicking and the left doesn't care and increases it
As for the price of electricity, I find it "exorbitant":
- nuclear power produces at 36€/MWh
- in the past, users paid around 50€/MWh and EDF could invest in new power plants
- today, I pay 200€/MWh!!! because of ARENH, sanctions against Russia, the indecent cost of EDF buying back the production of windmills, etc...
As for bank loans, I was talking about government borrowing for its expenses. In the past, France borrowed from the Bank of France at zero interest. To do this, the Bank of France created money that was then destroyed when reimbursed by the State. Now, the State is forced to borrow on the markets with interest. And, given the enormous debt (3300 billion €), it must borrow even more to pay the interest!!! These interests represent almost 45% of income tax (50 billion / 112 billion)

[Quiksilver]

Many of the disadvantages of France's EU membership are exactly the reasons which were used to achieve Brexit. Back then I felt that the UK should have stayed and tried to change the EU from within. The same goes for France, especially as it is a major player. Do you think it's feasible, @Biloute? Do you think there is even the desire to do so? As with the political system, there are too many snouts in troughs and vested interests, and I can't see that changing

[Biloute]

@Quicksilver : Before the EU, there was the Common Market that facilitated trade between European countries. It was a good thing and everyone stayed at home. You could still travel between countries but it was under control. IMO, we shouldn't have gone beyond that! I have always tried to apply this principle: "never do anything without first thinking how to undo it". This was not the case for the EU: it would have been necessary to advance step by step as if in a minefield. I think that the "people at the top" knew that they were getting a huge financial advantage. The "people at the bottom" had no idea: it was enough to convince them to shine the future paradise. It was quite easy because people, especially young people, are often tempted by new things to try to escape their mediocrity (the latest smartphone... why not the EU?). I think that modest French people are beginning to realize the disadvantages they are suffering (electricity prices, insecurity resulting from immigration, etc.). The State has managed to hide the causes of this individual impoverishment by distributing more and more aid, which has made the debt take off like a rocket! Furthermore, to prevent the people from rebelling, it was necessary to make people individualistic. Since aid goes through the State, the profiteers do not realize that they are living off those who work. And the one who works does not realize that his neighbor on benefit is taking his money. The solidarity organized by the State has killed the spontaneous solidarity that once existed within families, villages or neighborhoods. The recent progression of the RN shows that the people no longer have confidence in the right and left parties that have governed us for decades. But it will take time for people to understand that the EU cannot continue like this and for them to bring to power politicians who have a real desire to reform this EU deeply. The UK has chosen the hard method by opting for Brexit. If tomorrow France opted for a Frexit, the EU would be screwed and we would have to start from scratch by going slowly as we should have done at the beginning. Maybe the elites will realize that it is better for them to take the lead by reforming the EU themselves from the inside than to wait for the people to revolt and wreck everything?
I think I will not live long enough to know which path will be taken...

[niemeyjt]

But your fellow countrymen voted for the EU - OK, only just, and only after some sob story from Mitterrand. But vote for it they did. Had the UK been given the same opportunity then things would have turned out a whole lot differently, I suspect.

[Blaze]

Agreed, Quiksilver.

@niemeyjt France wasn't the only country which had a pathetic majority. Ireland wasn't very convinced and Denmark had 2 referendums to get the result it wanted.

As for bank loans, I was talking about government borrowing for its expenses.

I appreciate that ! I was talking about internally, people borrowing beyond their means ... Borrowing from the top has filtered down and "everyone" is doing it.

The 6 countries who created the EU (including France) had no idea what it would turn into. What started out as an economical union has turned into something which is becoming more and more unworkable. Is this because more and more countries are joining, countries that are not necessarily helping the EU to prosper ? Can you really expect the people of these countries with different cultures to be in complete agreement just because their heads of state agree on terms ?
I'm not against the EU but agree with Quicksilver : Rather than consider leaving, France could try to change things from within. Once out, it would be impossible.
If no borders are a problem, why not lobby for their return ? Bulgaria and Romania have just had their borders lifted ......

I can't see Bayrou agreeing with LFI which is led by a Trotskyist : destroy to rebuild. Perhaps he can come to some sort of arrangement with MLP to restore some sort of order even if just interim ......

[exile]

@Quicksilver : Since aid goes through the State, the profiteers do not realize that they are living off those who work. And the one who works does not realize that his neighbor on benefit is taking his money.

You are completely right in this and it pains me to say this, but one of the big beneficiaries is French farmer.

On the issue of Mercosur you are wrong. Nothing has yet changed but when it does then the reality of subsidies to produce rather under the expectation food will really hit home. I have "enjoyed" French beef - largely under-matured and very much over priced - and it does not touch the sides of Argentinian or even Brazilian beef. I have had the pleasure of both in Germany and at half the prices of the French chew till you die equivalent.

Protect the current French farming system at your peril. I have huge regard for our local farmers who, by dint of the local geography, have mainly avoided the pitfalls of reliance on subsidy and I will support them to the hilt; but the subsidies to the mega farms of the plains will be the downfall of the current French farming industry.

[MAD87]

Protect the current French farming system at your peril. I have huge regard for our local farmers who, by dint of the local geography, have mainly avoided the pitfalls of reliance on subsidy and I will support them to the hilt; but the subsidies to the mega farms of the plains will be the downfall of the current French farming industry.

Hear hear.