What's a woman?

[suein56]

A superb article .. and a brilliant analysis of a complex problem.
And in the end .. 'One thing is certain: this controversy is not going away.'

The most definitive tests available are costly and invasive so, from the IOC's point of view, probably a 'No'.
But somehow a reasonable new decision needs to be made as regards the Olympics.

[Lori]

What a fascinating article. However, I'm not totally clear on this part:

In the womb, they will develop a male anatomy until the final stage of growing a penis - and when they are not able to, then they’ll start developing a vulva and a clitoris.

But they don’t develop female reproductive organs: they don’t have a cervix or a uterus.

These people don’t have periods and they can’t get pregnant. Having sex with males can be difficult.

Discovering you have this kind of genetic mutation can be a shock.

“The most recent woman we diagnosed with having XY chromosomes was 33,” says Claus Højbjerg Gravholt - an endocrinology professor at Aarhus University who spent the past 30 years dealing with DSD.

His patient came to see him because she had no idea why she couldn’t get pregnant.

“We discovered she didn’t have a uterus, so she would never be able to have a baby. She was absolutely devastated.”


So, there is no mention of a vagina. If the noted patient above was 'absolutely devastated,' I assume she had been having what would be considered traditional man/woman sex. You'd need a vagina for that. Did I miss that part of the development.

The entire article was really interesting.

[niemeyjt]

I suspect she did have a vagina as embryologically it comes from same origins as urethra in males - in the male it gets zipped up so to speak and forms the raphe - as I remember it.

There is another consideration not mentioned in BBC article which is H-Y antigen.

[exile]

An interesting article. Thanks for posting. Obviously much more complicated than I had thought and thing have certainly moved on since I learnt rudimentary human biology.

[suein56]

Obviously much more complicated than I had thought

My thoughts exactly .. which still leads me to believe the IOC needs to look into this situation much more deeply as it is fast becoming a genuine problem. Especially so in Boxing - as female boxers will be reluctant to be 'beaten up' rather than simply losing to their opponent. Some will refuse to 'fight' as they are aware they will be punched much harder than they can physically manage in retaliation.
That's not fair competition.

[Niftyons]

‘ A frenzied debate has raged ‘

Sounds more Daily Mail or Express than BBC to me.

[niemeyjt]

Well, the Algerian has won gold - and no-one died whilst facing him.

Let us hope the Taiwanese fighter also does not kill his female opponent tomorrow.

This has to be a wake up call to the woke IOC. I don't care if the disaffiliated IBA is associated with Russia - they did a better job of protecting women fighters than the IOC have done.

[suein56]

This has to be a wake up call to the woke IOC. I don't care if the disaffiliated IBA is associated with Russia - they did a better job of protecting women fighters than the IOC have done.

Can only agree .. even tho Russia is often the 'bad party' in any discussion/decision/action due to their insistence in trying to manipulate outcomes with a view to eventually destabilising western ideology.

[niemeyjt]

Well, it seems the Taiwanese fighter managed to defeat his female opponent without killing her - small mercies.

Time to end this woke nonsense for once and for all.

[edythuk]

Reading the article it’s clear that we are all made up of a mixture of genes and hormones which in the extremes can produce masculine-looking women and feminine-looking men.
Athletes choose the discipline best suited to their ability and body shape. A tall high jumper with very long legs has a real advantage over a short person. These 2 boxers are born women and are using what nature provided to progress them in their chosen sport. They have a real advantage but they can’t change that.