A welcome windfall??

[Quiksilver]

If anyone is going to be targeted for disadvantageous changes in future, it will be Brit pensioners abroad. Not only does it save the Gov money, but it's a vote-winner with a certain section of the UK public who are encouraged to believe that we're all rolling in it
AFAIK, the right to vote after 15 years absence for ex-pats has still not been re-instated?
What's worse is that the French Gov also seem to be looking for loopholes whereby migrants permanents, as they so charmingly put it, are ineligible for any help automatically given to French nationals on a low income.

[exile]

My wish would be that extras such as the enlarged winter fuel payment this year was paid to those who need it, rather than an across the board payment. We received £500, which those who are doing OK don’t actually need, whereas for many others it could mean less fear of heating costs etc.

The problem is that it has been shown time and time again that it is easier to give a global benefit and then collect extra tax from the better off, than to try and target benefit with all the measurement and assessment that is then required.

The second you target a benefit, you create a boundary and those on the wrong side of the boundary will show how that is unjust - often with good cause. Even global benefits have their problems - for example the current UK energy cost limits. All will benefit. Many will reduce their consumption of energy and in a sense benefit further. Some however are really tied to higher than normal energy usage - those who require the use of at-home medical equipment that is powered for considerable periods if not 24/7.

Governments will never get it 100% right but they can at least make it better than it might have been.

In the French example I would use an example Macron's inflation bonus of €100. Paid to all individuals with a low income. OH received it since her income is a not 100% UK OAP plus a small (I might say miserable but that would be unfair) NHS pension. We did not need it as a couple and be very sure we, as a couple, will pay that back in taxes. However in different circumstances that €100 would be very important

[Hotrodder]

I would think, as Polly suggests, that means testing would be the fairest method to ensure the cash gets to those who need it most. It is obvious that many in UK think we are all here (abroad) living like lords with not only a state pension but also income from stocks, shares, rental income and a portfolio of private pensions. The fact is that some of us are living on just the state pension (sometimes less) and that UK pension is the lowest in Europe by a considerable margin. When the Torys cut off our WFA by using devious means to calculate the average winter temperature in France it brought into focus just how foul hearted they really are. Everything they have done since then has served to reinforce my opinion of them.

[Polly]

Exile, I understand that there will always be problems when such decisions are made, but it feels so unjust to me that many in similar positions to us don’t actually need that money while others are becoming desperate for help.

We’ve chosen where to target that £500, hoping that it will do some good.

[exile]

@Hotrodder
Your WFA demonstrates exactly why universal payment might be better. How can a UK government establish "means" for those making no tax declaration in the UK? So they just make up some arbitrary rule to exclude "the non-deserving" - which happens to include the French* but not the Italian residents. I do accept in this case there is no mechanism for them to reclaim from those who do not "need" that benefit if they are tax resident elsewhere.

* With the excuse that they could not separate out the statistics for people living in "France" and those living in DOM/TOM - crazy since the French do it all the time with "Metropolitain France" statistics. Clearly French civil servants are much cleverer than UK ones.

@Polly
I understand your point completely and very much respect your decision to use that money to better others.

There will always be those worse off than ourselves. We will each individually choose how to handle that - after governments have helped by taking a share. Some will selfishly or through simple self need keep the offers. Others will make donations. Still others will "invest" that money as a means to improving the environment (in its widest sense) in which they live. We for example care for what would otherwise be abandoned felines.

[niemeyjt]

. . . and that UK pension is the lowest in Europe by a considerable margin.

Except it is not. Whilst the UK is nowhere near the best, it is not "the lowest in Europe by a considerable margin"

From The Mercer CFA Institute Global Pension Index 2021:

Austria - 55.0
Belgium - 67.9
Denmark - 82.0
Finland - 77.2
France - 63.2
Germany - 67.9
Iceland - 84.7
Ireland - 70.0
Italy - 55.7
Netherlands - 84.6
Norway - 75.3
Poland - 57.5
Portugal - 62.8
Spain - 61.8
Sweden - 74.6
Switzerland - 72.3
United Kingdom - 73.7

source: https://www.mercer.com/our-thinking/glo ... #collapse0

[Wilbro]

@niemeyjt spot
What is it that we are looking at? I'm not going to look at the report as they want information before you can download it.
I can't work out what the logic is to the figures you quote?
For example the UK is higher than France so what are we measuring as that looks very wrong to me.
Do the figures include additional voluntary provision as the mandatory UK provision is 28.4 per cent and the EU is 63.5 per cent.
Add in the voluntary provisions then the UK is 61% but that means we provide more than half from our own pockets.

[niemeyjt]

Enter anything - it is not checked. How calculated:

pension1.jpg

The report is 130 pages if you want more details.

[Doug]

I would think, as Polly suggests, that means testing would be the fairest method to ensure the cash gets to those who need it most. It is obvious that many in UK think we are all here (abroad) living like lords with not only a state pension but also income from stocks, shares, rental income and a portfolio of private pensions. The fact is that some of us are living on just the state pension (sometimes less) and that UK pension is the lowest in Europe by a considerable margin. When the Torys cut off our WFA by using devious means to calculate the average winter temperature in France it brought into focus just how foul hearted they really are. Everything they have done since then has served to reinforce my opinion of them.

We're in that bracket in that our joint pensions is lower than snic here in France, having left the uk back in the late 80s and stupidly not keeping up the N.H. payements.
As being self employed for most of my life I payed 10% more than saleried and got less.
Having said that we live very confortable here in France on our low uk pensions which we couldn't do back there.

[Loup-garou]

Niemeyjt, hummn. I must say I am not persuaded. When things like "Sustainability" are factored in - we all know that Italy can change it's government almost on the strength of a football result, whereas the UK is the model of stability with Prime Ministers and their governments being in place for several consecutive years. Joking aside, one man's meat is another man's poison and one nationality's luxury is another nationality's essential for whatever reason eg, climate, culture, etc.

Just a few thoughts on what has been said, "Means Testing" in and of itself cost money. It costs less money if all those concerned are under the same tax jurisdiction and, as a consequence all their financial information should be to hand but that is not the situation being discussed here. Perhaps with allowances it could be decided those who own/rent property in Band ? do not qualify but there will be those who feel aggrieved and cry "foul" whilst others don't have a property Band as they live abroad.

It is mentioned that State Pension recipients might become tax payers - but many, many already are! Gov pension reipients, UK property landlords, etc. pay tax in the UK but their tax free allowance is reduced by the amount of state pension they are paid ergo est they are already deducted tax to the value of 20% of their pension payments.